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Trent - Oct 04, 2004 - 03:46 PM
Post subject: Attention Moderators and Forum Admin

I really think that Advertising on this forum needs to be cracked down upon. It is getting out of control. It seems that the only reason anyone posts here anymore is to place their blatant ad, or post an ad disguised as a response.

I know we have all been guilty of it at one time or another. I will be the first to admit that I have done it before. However, it is ridiculous now!

There are only about 5-10 of us that actually contribute anything worthy here and everyone else is just here to advertise.

It is getting to the point where I am seriously considering quitting coming here to post. By the time I get done reading the spam everyday I have wasted 20 minutes.

I also realize that sometimes advertising is necessary when you are really giving a "super" resource that will help others. Or if you are replying and the answer happens to lie in your website, product, etc... those situations are acceptable (within reason).

I think that there should be a VERY visible warning aganst spamming and blatant advertising. If someone does it then their ad should be deleted ASAP. If they continue then they should be banned.

Also, the "advertise here" section is quite worthless in my opinion. Yes, I have placed ads there before but there is really no reason for that section. Deleting it certainly wouldn't hurt anything.

That is just my 2cents on the issue. I am not trying to start any controversy. I would love to hear other peoples opinions on this issue.

theuniek1 - Oct 04, 2004 - 08:02 PM
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Quote:

There are only about 5-10 of us that actually contribute anything worthy here and everyone else is just here to advertise

Well I hope to be one of the 5-10 Smile

.

I do believe you have a very valid point Trent, personally - while I think the messing up of links within the ads or repremanding them in the post below is a comical idea - I do believe that the only effective way to curb the advertisements is simply to delete the posts altogether or maybe even leave a "this post was a blatant ad by a drive by spammer" in its place to further deter future spammers and let them know their posts will be deleted.

About the advertising section - yep, this the first forum where I saw that - thought it was interesting, may have even posted there myself way back when I just got here (don't remember ROFL) and I honestly (judging by the page views of those posts) don't think anyone reads them besides the authors themselves. Whether or not it's deleted is up to you guys, but it would't bother me either way.

I've also become pretty good and sniffing out "spam" by reading the subjects and I just read the ones that I feel would have valid info and mark the rest as read - wish I didn't have to do that though.

And my final thoughts - I know you guys are busy (moderators and Mufad) so no pressure Very Happy

Regards,
Teli

Trent - Oct 04, 2004 - 08:25 PM
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Very valid points Teli. It looks like we are pretty much in total agreement.

BTW... Yes, you are one of the 5-10!

theuniek1 - Oct 04, 2004 - 08:51 PM
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Yes I'd agree we are Smile

keith - Oct 07, 2004 - 02:38 AM
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Trent,

First of all..... Thank You for having the guts to post this (not that it takes guts but many people wouldn't bother to say what they think, they would just go away and never return)......

That being said..... I will step out in front of the bus and take this one head on.....

I'd say, in all honesty, that we HAVE been slacking a bit on the actual "moderation" of the forum. The main problem, as Teli so aptly stated, is that we are all "busy". You see...... I, as well as Vinyl (the only other moderator besides Mufad) am extremely busy with all aspects of my online "career". I/We moderate this forum in our free time out of love of the community and the desire to help others find the home business that is right for them......

The negative to the situation of course is that when other aspects start picking up there are some things that tend to "slip" a bit. As far as fault...... I can blame no one except the nature of life itself...... Time is unfortunatly not as never-ending as I would like it to be Smile

The real solution to this is to simply have more moderators....... or one that can stay here 24/7 as was suggested I do by our dear friend Networker a while back Smile

To get to the point.... I'll do better! I promise! Thanks for bringing this to our attention..... a little kick in the shins is good now and then!

oh...... and yes...... Teli, You ARE one of the 5-10 Smile

(I hope I am too!)

networker4u - Oct 07, 2004 - 08:24 AM
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Huhh I've been waiting for response from Moderators... glad that Keith has responded it... I even saw Vinyl firing to everyone whenever and wherever possible! That’s good anyway Razz

Blatant advertising can be found in almost all the forums. Exception is some forums requires all the post to be approved by Moderator's

I used to respond with rude words against Spamy messages earlier. But now it's out of control and so I stopped it... why should I waste my time responding SPAM?

Everyone is busy in their own business. Personally I have great respect to this website b'coz I started my online biz through this website only and I strongly believe many peoples have taken advantage from this site and forum ... I gained $1000's knowledge from this site which I couldn't from 39$, 49$, 99$.... e-books! Thatswhy I visit this site regularly and participate in discussions... and will continue, though my website has nothing to do with biz-whiz visitors...

Removal of Banner Prize might slowdown SPAM... But Spammers post ads wherever possible. I intentionally stepped down from top 5 competition... I not even claimed my two months banner prize... b'z I don't need at all!

It'd be JOKE to have more number of Moderators than actual posters!

However thank you Trent for showing your disappointment and I request you to continue your lelationship wth WAH Community

Be CRAZY…. NOT Be LAZY Smile

theuniek1 - Oct 07, 2004 - 08:37 AM
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Great points Mahesh,
There is a wealth of knowledge here and it's a great resource for the site visitors..I don't think Trent would really stop visiting (would you Trent?) - I continue to visit and post any insights I have and I'm always open to review sites/start discussions, etc - but I must admit my visitors are less frequent (about every other day or two instead of a skim by each morning before I get started).

And Keith - thank you for your response - yeppers, I know moderators have their own lives and businesses to run which is why I respect you guys so much - and a good moderator is worth his weight in gold Wink

...soooo, no pressure

Teli

Trent - Oct 07, 2004 - 12:26 PM
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Alright, guys/gals I was waiting for this post to pick up! I am glad some more people decided to chime in thoughts.

Thanks to Keith the Mod for giving a great reply.

By the way... Mufad asked me to be a Moderator the other day (after reading this post) and I agreed. So, we will hopefully have one more Mod to help out with the spam. However, he hasn't replied back with the details so maybe he decided to retract his offer.

Either way, I will still be here nearly everyday and I like to tell spammers where to go!

theuniek1 - Oct 07, 2004 - 12:42 PM
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Woohoo - now we all get to harrass Trent!

Trent - Oct 07, 2004 - 04:11 PM
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Anybody see all the posts today by George King? Classic spammer and exactly what this post is talking about.

Mods please take care of him!

theuniek1 - Oct 07, 2004 - 04:24 PM
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You know Trent - ROFL - I thought this was gonna be another post by classic spammer dude when I checked my email and saw the "topic reply notifications"

At least he's showing some restraint by not spamming the "get rid of spam" thread

Trent - Oct 07, 2004 - 05:39 PM
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He is one of the worst spammers I have ever seen. Something like 15 of the exact same post in all different sections.

I was so mad when I saw his posts I wanted to explode.

vinyl - Oct 07, 2004 - 05:59 PM
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SPAM is something you cant beat completly, ever. Its not just a matter of mod stuff, but regarding it, Im free to say that Keith, Mufad and me did pretty well job, specially knowing that Keith & me dont have access to all forums so couple times we had to coordinate it a bit in between. And being honest, I never recieved a single PM from any of you guys, except Keith, with clear directions where blatant ad is posted. Or maybe it happened once, but still... Why? Im not asking that to cover us (mods & admin), because I am sure that our SPAM conscience is clear, I am asking that because I dissagree with that 'lack of time' argument – sure, we work, we play, we study, we surf on many places and administer many sites... but I can guarantee that ANY spammy post WOULDNT stay alive longer than 24hrs if ANY of you guys sent clear PM/email notification to Keith/Mufad/me - thats something that we can certanly check much faster than going thru whole board, isnt it?

But sure, if there were more mods, checking the board for SPAM would certanly be much easier, or, shall I say - possible, BUT, IMHO, beside the SPAM, which I will speak about in the upcoming part of this post, this board lacks of quality content. I mean, it doesnt, its relative thing, but thats something Id like to point out. When I became moderator, I didnt focus on SPAM fight, I focused on content and systematic forum improvements that would make this forum better. New forums were created and I think they are going pretty well, especially the SEO one. I pointed this couple of times - no matter how old this forum is, it will certanly go thru some process of changes that would lead to creation of better community and suggestions are certanly more helpfull that plain accusations & personal remarks. I dont think anyone is accused here, thought, except the spammers themselves. But they are there, and they will always be there because theres no person or script that can prevent them forever. Problem occurs when they are stimulated – with banner prize, for example. Mufad had hard time setting that system up and I am sure that isnt easy for him to shut it down in a second. I like that system and approve it – every possitive stimulation is good, but, there are always exceptions, or people who will abuse it – as now, I can point my finger to at least one person which abuses it – I wont mention his/her nickname, but it starts with 's' and ends with 'y'. Wink

I warned him/her twice (publicly & via PM) and hopefully he/she will stop posting nonsense stuff. Otherwise, I will demand that he/she become excluded from the prize list, forever.

We (forum stuff) discussed banner prize couple months ago and we agreed that it should be supported with automatical system... but not the one that supports quantity than quality – its logical thing, isnt it – but be sure its not so easy to implement. We thought about different approach – checking number of characters in posts and giving special points for it... it is certanly more functional... BUT, it lacks of support for many other things on Biz-Whiz, except forum itself... so things left the same, unfortunatelly. But knowing the problem is half way of fixing it – sure, banner prize stimulates spam, but thats not a big deal as those spammers can easily be excluded, even if they sit in top5 spot... well, manually... which sucks... I mean, Im programmer, its logical thing to expect that I try to automate things as much possible, but in many cases humans, dirty as they are, are better solution than machines. So enough on banner prize – it stays as it is, with spammers being excluded, on one way or another... I am the first one who will fight against people who come here just because of banner prize so rest assured that noone who didnt deserve it WONT get it.

I approve Trents radical suggestion of removing "Advertise here" section – I said that long ago, both to stuff & publicly. I hope this thread will trigger Mufads reaction on that and hopefully(, for me), that forum will die with a painfull death. Wink

Personally, Id remove/merge other forums which has < 10 topics with bigger ones – I understand Mufad, he wants to make "home business" related forum and thats perfectly ok... but I think structure should be changed because its obvious thing that some forums doesnt attract visitors... and thats very important in order to have growing community.

Now comming back to Trent and his status, I did support you as a moderator when Mufad asked me for opinion – I will always support every person in here which I consider contributing. Whether its Trent, Teli or n4u, Id vote for all of you in one way or another. BUT, be sure that I would NEVER support any of you (specially Trent) just because starting this, or similar threads. Thats not enough to assure me that youd be good moderator. Based on everything I wrote, Its pretty clear what I favorize and SPAM police simply doesnt fit to that – every member in this forum can do that. Dont take me wrong, I speak about that globaly, but regarding you personally, I think that pointing SPAM out is ok, but I think you pointed it out too much with this –

Trent wrote:

It is getting to the point where I am seriously considering quitting coming here to post. By the time I get done reading the spam everyday I have wasted 20 minutes

I am more closer to this:

Teli wrote:

I've become pretty good and sniffing out "spam" by reading the subjects and I just read the ones that I feel would have valid info and mark the rest as read.

Simply because you can easily ignore such threads without wasting too much time on them. If you cant ignore them, well, you should report them. Its too bad that we dont have some "Report to moderator" button in every post because it may help if you dont want to waste time by writing PM's, but one day, I hope it will go live Still, its just a matter of lazyness, because Im sure that every one of us (and currently, there are no more than three, LOL) would react in a reasonable period of time.

As a conclusion, I do think we should have more mods but spam fight should be just one aspect of our work in here – my suggestion would be to add Trent, Teli & n4u, each one in forums of their wish but also their knowledge (which is very important!). Of course, Id give you opportunity to say what forums would youd like to see here and Id assign them to you. Thats the option that would support content and thats what Id like to see.

I hope Mufad will say his words too... I just think hes unavailable at the moment, well... hes probably chasing some cute Indias chicks while Im wasting time writing Tihij Don (damn large and boring book written by Russian writer Mihail Solohov) :]

Cheers,
V.

Trent - Oct 07, 2004 - 07:12 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

I agree that spam can never be completely conquered. I was not trying to imply that it was the mods fault. I was only saying that we all need to crack down on it and since only the mods can delete/edit posts I directed my concerns in your direction. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote:

but I can guarantee that ANY spammy post WOULDNT stay alive longer than 24hrs if ANY of you guys sent clear PM/email notification to Keith/Mufad/me - thats something that we can certanly check much faster than going thru whole board, isnt it?

Honestly, I never thought of doing that. I will send PM's from now on if there is a lot of spam to deal with.

Quote:

When I became moderator, I didnt focus on SPAM fight, I focused on content and systematic forum improvements that would make this forum better. New forums were created and I think they are going pretty well, especially the SEO one. I pointed this couple of times - no matter how old this forum is, it will certanly go thru some process of changes that would lead to creation of better community and suggestions are certanly more helpfull that plain accusations & personal remarks.

I agree that everyone here (and the Mods) should be more concerned with quality content and not just a spam fight. However, maintaining quality content also means keeping spam out. Nobody was giving plain accusations, I was only pointing out that spam is a big problem here.

Quote:

Problem occurs when they are stimulated – with banner prize, for example. Mufad had hard time setting that system up and I am sure that isnt easy for him to shut it down in a second. I like that system and approve it – every possitive stimulation is good, but, there are always exceptions, or people who will abuse it

I am all for shutting it down. Those of us that come here on a regular basis, as legitimate posters, will come here anyway whether there is a banner prize or not. So, IMHO, the banner prize only brings more spammers. Unless, you do figure out a way to exclude spammers, then I am in favor of keeping the prize.

Quote:

I definitely agree with you on that. There are a lot of forums here that only bring spammers and have no quality content.

Code:

Now comming back to Trent and his status, I did support you as a moderator when Mufad asked me for opinion – I will always support every person in here which I consider contributing. Whether its Trent, Teli or n4u, Id vote for all of you in one way or another.

And we thank you for that support. I would also support you.

Quote:

BUT, be sure that I would NEVER support any of you (specially Trent) just because starting this, or similar threads. Thats not enough to assure me that youd be good moderator. Based on everything I wrote, Its pretty clear what I favorize and SPAM police simply doesnt fit to that – every member in this forum can do that.

I don't think Mufad asked me to be a moderator just because I posted this thread. I have posted about 150 posts here and most of them were quality. I have useful knowledge of internet business. I also come here numerous times every day to read/reply to posts.

I am not here to be a spam police, I only pointed it out because it is a problem. Yes, I think part of being a mod is getting rid of spam.

I could care less about the spam if it didn't hurt the integrity of the forum. As a moderator the job is to keep the forum integrity up.

I will not accept the moderator position just to be a spam cop, if that is the only reason you think he asked me.

Quote:

Dont take me wrong, I speak about that globaly, but regarding you personally, I think that pointing SPAM out is ok, but I think you pointed it out too much with this

Trent wrote:
It is getting to the point where I am seriously considering quitting coming here to post. By the time I get done reading the spam everyday I have wasted 20 minutes

Why is pointing it out too much with this. It is a problem so I simply pointed it out. That is my opinion on the matter. If I was considering leaving the forum based on spam then why can't I post that?

Quote:

I am more closer to this:

Teli wrote:
I've become pretty good and sniffing out "spam" by reading the subjects and I just read the ones that I feel would have valid info and mark the rest as read.

Simply because you can easily ignore such threads without wasting too much time on them.

MANY spam posts are disguised as legit posts so IMO it is very hard to just ignore them, unless you are ignoring legit posts as well.

Vinyl, if you are so opposed to me posting this thread then let me know and I will delete it (or you can).

vinyl - Oct 07, 2004 - 09:31 PM
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Trent wrote:

I was not trying to imply that it was the mods fault.

And whose was it?

A bit lower, you said -

Quote:

I think part of being a mod is getting rid of spam.

and you are speaking about big problems with spam here... so I just wanted to tell the facts, no matter what was your reason. Btw, Im sure it wasnt malicios but Im mod here and I simply cant ignore thing you consider as my responsibility, partially or not, right?

Quote:

Honestly, I never thought of doing that. I will send PM's from now on if there is a lot of spam to deal with.

Well... think about it - what can you do? You can either try speaking with spammer and in that case, things will certanly go offtopic (which is a new problem then) and if mod decides to remove that post, he must remove all the following non-spam-offtopic messages in order not to create confusion. Other option is to report post to moderator and IMHO, thats the right one. It all depends of spammer, for instance, I doubt the latest one (George King) would listen you at all - so I removed almost all of his posts, but I also had to remove many of yours & Telis too - its was more complicated, wasnt it? If he was normal person, hed listen you in start & follow your advice, but... what can i say... in the case that you wanna hit such guys by words, do it hard Wink

(...and will it give any effects? I think No.)

Quote:

Sounds logical to me... by default, I always seeked for solution that would keep the prize up... maybe Im wrong, maybe it really is impossible.

Quote:

I don't think Mufad asked me to be a moderator just because I posted this thread. I am not here to be a spam police, I only pointed it out because it is a problem. I could care less about the spam if it didn't hurt the integrity of the forum. As a moderator the job is to keep the forum integrity up. I will not accept the moderator position just to be a spam cop, if that is the only reason you think he asked me.

I dont think he asked you to become mod because of that. If he did, he must be aware that you will fail because spam isnt easy to control at all, especially without user interaction. I just wanted to distinguish MY support for you from perspective of you actually being contributing user - maybe I want clear enough.

Quote:

Sure you can point that, but it wont help too much dealing with it, right? And this thread is ment for that, right? So instead of speaking about your leaving the forum because of spam, you should speak about dealing with it. And meanwhile, you should learn how to ignore/report it, instead of giving him enough power to make you mad. Maybe Im wrong in my thought that user interaction is most important with dealing with spam, but its a fact that noone of us cant watch this forum 24hrs a day... even if there were 20+ mods, sometimes, someone wont be available. And if I can expect you to leave forum because of spam and teli to lower their visits because of it, from whom can I expect to help me dealing with it? You as a moderator? Teli as a moderator?

Quote:

Vinyl, if you are so opposed to me posting this thread then let me know and I will delete it (or you can).

Is this worth commenting at all knowing that I just added one more reply to it? Still, dont think Im trying to oppose you, we are all here on the same side :]

V.

admin - Oct 08, 2004 - 06:20 AM
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Thanks Trent for bringing up the topic of spam on this forum and how we can solve it.
Thanks also for accepting to become a moderator, the time and efforts spent by the moderators to make this forum clean and useful is appreciated, it is a community service that all the forum visitors should be thankful for.
Trent, You are now officially our new moderator, you will be introduced in our November Newsletter.
I think the "advertise here" forum should be there so that the other forums stay clean.
Do email me/keith/vinyl any other suggestions that you have,
Thanks,
Mufad.

Trent - Oct 08, 2004 - 09:30 AM
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Thank you very much Mufad. I appreciate your kind words and the new moderator position.

vinyl - Oct 08, 2004 - 04:04 PM
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I congratulate you too and wish you all the best at you mods possitions - welcome to the society of dead poets Wink

I dont think this issue is closed here - I still dont see whats is the spam fight strategy which is supported here, both on mods/users/Mufads side? If its plain moderation, I still think we need more moderators.

And Mufad, after all things said in this topic, you decided to leave Advertise here forum, right? Why, in the name of God? Dont you think that that content is apsolutely useless/wothless? I doubt SPAM should reside there at all. It should be nowhere, IMHO.

System changes can certanly help - I just emailed you regarding new feature that I think we should implement - report post button in each post - it would allow users to act instantly, with a single click on the "Report post" image - mods of that forum will recieve email notification consisting of abusers/reporters username and direct link to the problematic post.

theuniek1 - Oct 08, 2004 - 04:22 PM
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That's a pretty nifty idea vinyl - the "report abuse" button is something I see in quite a few forums and I think it would prompt more people (users) to interact with the admin and help to combat the spam problem.

The advertise here section - I'm neither for nor against it - personally, if it's gone, it's gone, if not...then oh well - I know it's not a place I actually frequent

Trent - CONGRATULATIONS!!! Woo and hoo - we have a new mod!

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